When did being a Jalop/Opponaut turn into being a high n mighty judgmental asshole?

"PardonMyFlemish16" (TheCoolKid) 03/17/2014 at 16:10 • Filed to: None

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These Corolla posts are really bringing out the worst in the commenters on the site.

I just have one simple question. What makes "us" "right"? How is the Mazda 3 an objectively better car than a Civrolla for any and everybody? Is it impossible for anyone to legitimately want things from cars that we don't?

And since when did a Mazda 3 come to represent pure driving pleasure anyway? It's a FWD economy car. Not even a tuned or performance spec one either. It's not mentionable in the company of something like a DC2 ITR, Focus SVT or Clio RS, let alone non-asterisked great drivers cars.

Most importantly though, if folks would stop crying about Corollas, they'd maybe realize we are living in a golden age of performance cars and the stickshift transmission. Something like a Camry or 911 GT3 not having a stickshift is not really relevant to the average enthusiast. A brown diesel stickshift Camry would still suck, and a 911 GT3 is perpetually out of most folks' price ranges new or used. The folks who can afford them don't seem to mind. A lot of storied nameplates (Camaro, Mustang, 911, Z) are at their peaks for performance and inflation adjusted value. The freaking GT86 went into production for Christ's sake. All of this is happening while *GASP* the Corolla continues to dominate its segment in sales.

People's beef isn't *really* with the Corolla. There is a hilarious paradox in all the griping of the Jalopponauts. The religion of Jalopnik/Oppolock is inherently rooted in contrarianism and the illusion of car enthusiasm as some kind of unique and honorable endeavor. However, when people dump on the Corolla and those who buy it, they are basically conforming to the Jalopponaut ideal, in turn becoming not unlike the supposed lemmings that would dare to buy anything but a Mazda3.

In other words, dumping people for supposedly jumping onto the Corolla bandwagon, is jumping onto an ACTUAL bandwagon, representative of all the ugliness auto enthusiasm has to offer. The unwarranted sense of superiority over non enthusiasts, the assignment of moral and character value stemming from what one drives, the displaying of the total lack of ability to step outside one's self and understand others.

LOL.

Hey guys. Let's get our heads out of our collective asses, stop trying to assign moral judgments to non-enthusiasts and their cars, and just get back to appreciating all the automotive good we are able to enjoy. Whining about Corollas is about as big of a waste of time as any auto enthusiast can undertake.

Laird Andrew Neby Bradleigh > PardonMyFlemish16 03/17/2014 at 16:15

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I'd buy the new Corolla (Auris in Norway). I have a '97 Mitsubishi Lancer Estate as my DD.

THIS is the NEW Auris.. and it looks GREAT.. :)

Milky > PardonMyFlemish16 03/17/2014 at 16:16

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But …. crappy engine, 4spd, drum brakes, and crossover wheel gap.

I just can't. There are good appliances, the Corolla just isn't one of them.

Barbarian772 > Milky 03/17/2014 at 16:22

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Wait... they still produce cars with 4 speeds? Like this?

THIS WOULD BE AWESOMETASTIC(kinda)

Laird Andrew Neby Bradleigh > Milky 03/17/2014 at 16:23

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I'm guessing you live in the US.. And I must ask.. you can't have the new Corolla as a bad ass hybrid in the US?

1337HPMustang > PardonMyFlemish16 03/17/2014 at 16:25

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The fact you called an integra a "dc2itr" shows you're just a butt-hurt fwd fan boy.

All glory to the RWD master race!

Milky > Barbarian772 03/17/2014 at 16:29

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No like this.

RamblinRover Luxury-Yacht > PardonMyFlemish16 03/17/2014 at 16:30

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...and as this is the umpteenth post on how we shouldn't dump on Corollas, there is now a bandwagon for that as well.

I'll whine about Corollas whenever I damn well please - though that's likely not be routine, as unless it's expressly adopted as a great car by somebody, I don't care. However, I'm not sure that assigning moral judgments to enthusiasts and their non-cars is distinctly different than assigning moral judgments to non-enthusiasts and their cars.

Also, holding up the Mazda 3 *is* the point. It's not that it's an enthusiasts' car, but that it's a FWD economy car that is many things the Corolla is not.

Also also, contrarianism here is 1 part sour grapes involving really cool cars, but 3 parts wanting to find one's own fun (driving economy cars fast) as one can, as a part of life, and that's why the Corolla rankles as it does. I'm unsure whether arguing against contrarians is in itself contrarian, so I won't raise that issue further. Especially as I in turn am arguing with you.

zeontestpilot > PardonMyFlemish16 03/17/2014 at 16:30

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I whole-healthfully agree with you. To me, a car is a car, it helps get from point a to point b. Its just nice and convenient if it fills other aspects that you want, like rwd, manual, etc.

Milky > Laird Andrew Neby Bradleigh 03/17/2014 at 16:31

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If memory serves me right we only get 2 engines. A base model with 132hp & the S model which is the same engine but with 140hp because it has direct injection.

WHY WOULD YOU JUST NOT SELL THE BETTER ENGINE TOYOTA?!!/1?

Moo > Laird Andrew Neby Bradleigh 03/17/2014 at 16:36

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I feel sorry for americans. They get ugly Corolla sedans instead of this beauty.

Laird Andrew Neby Bradleigh > Milky 03/17/2014 at 16:36

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the 140hp is the best one we get as well :) It's just that we actually buy that one. We don't need more. :)

Moo > 1337HPMustang 03/17/2014 at 16:37

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OPPINION.

You're disrespecting that.

Übel > PardonMyFlemish16 03/17/2014 at 16:39

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"And since when did a Mazda 3 come to represent pure driving pleasure anyway? It's a FWD economy car. Not even a tuned or performance spec one either. It's not mentionable in the company of something like a DC2 ITR, Focus SVT or Clio RS, let alone non-asterisked great drivers cars."

You're comparing apples to oranges. The Mazda is arguably the best driving car in its class, not in the world.Nobody is going to cross shop a decade old Honda Integra and a brand new Corolla. They're going to look at what's available on the new market.

On the other hand, if they're searching for a decade old hot hatch, they might cross-shop the Focus SVT and, say, a Mazdaspeed 3, one of the most powerful and best handling hot hatches of all time.

Laird Andrew Neby Bradleigh > Moo 03/17/2014 at 16:39

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Ahh.. so the American Corolla looks different than the European one?

Moo > Laird Andrew Neby Bradleigh 03/17/2014 at 16:43

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More like different models. The US is a sedan.

Laird Andrew Neby Bradleigh > Moo 03/17/2014 at 16:45

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ahh.. you americans and your sedans :P

MR2_FTW - Group J's resident Stig > PardonMyFlemish16 03/17/2014 at 16:45

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Well there are several things that makes the 3 a better car than the Corolla.

1. 6 speed manual transmission

2. Independent rear suspension (yep the Corolla is a twist beam, not true independent!)

3. 4 wheel discs standard

4. Looks (subjective, I know, but the new 3 hatch is one of the best looking cars around right now)

5. More fuel efficient (assuming Skyactiv engine)

6. Overall chassis is more composed, stiffer, more fun to drive

Moo > Laird Andrew Neby Bradleigh 03/17/2014 at 16:47

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Actually, I'm spanish. And that Corolla sedan is damn ugly.

PardonMyFlemish16 > Milky 03/17/2014 at 16:49

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Engine is not far off from the base engines of the competition... fail one.

Since when do automatic transmissions matter to enthusiasts? In any case, the 4AT is in the stripper model nobody will buy. Legit models have CVTs. Most importantly though, the manual transmission option has 6 speeds, as opposed to the 5 in the base Jetta and Focus. Fail 2.

Drum brakes are fail... well, I suppose damn near all the cars in the segment are fail then. Civic, Cobalt, Jetta, Focus all have drums in the back too. And yet, only the Corolla gets shit for still having it. Fail 3.

Plenty of cars in the segment have wack wheel gap. None as bad as the Corolla, but again, not a priority for the typical Corolla buyer, so who cares?

Nobody said you have to buy/like a Corolla either. I certainly don't. But I don't see what is so awful about it to warrant such disdain here.

Laird Andrew Neby Bradleigh > Moo 03/17/2014 at 16:50

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It is indeed.

PardonMyFlemish16 > 1337HPMustang 03/17/2014 at 16:58

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Actually I drive a 350Z 6MT, which last I checked is RWD, and ride a motorcycle, which is also RWD. Thx 4 playing tho

PardonMyFlemish16 > RamblinRover Luxury-Yacht 03/17/2014 at 17:02

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The Corolla IS a great car to the millions of folks who drive them every day. The fact that that rankles you is more due to you than the Corolla. It's not like we are talking about a non-Evo Lancer or something nobody buys. There are very legit and simple reasons the Corolla sells like it does that seem to be well beyond the typical Jalop's understanding.

Milky > PardonMyFlemish16 03/17/2014 at 17:03

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Cool kids should know nobody still says "fail", anyways ….

Your biggest fail is swapping sides between enthusiasts and typical Corolla buyers. Enthusiasts don't buy Corollas and since lots of people and companies do buy stripper Corollas the base 4spd does matter. Its a fricken Corolla, you see base models EVERYWHERE.

The fail with the engine is that they even offer the base model engine at all. The only difference is direct injection, why the hell would you keep the old base engine around?

Drum brakes are a fail on every base model car in its segment, that wasn't only Corolla hate.

As for wheel gap ….

Image taken from a post I did in the beginning of January, this isn't a new topic by any means.

http://oppositelock.jalopnik.com/when-will-peop…

!!! UNKNOWN CONTENT TYPE !!!

(disregard my shitty grammar)

therevengeofthesaab (really likes pre-2005 hondas right now) > PardonMyFlemish16 03/17/2014 at 17:07

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He is actually right guys, HATE THE DAMN PRIUS AND CAMRY INSTEAD!!!!!!!

therevengeofthesaab (really likes pre-2005 hondas right now) > PardonMyFlemish16 03/17/2014 at 17:12

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Corolla= 132hp

My Suzuki SX4= 150hp

And My Suzuki is a SUBCOMPACT!!!!!!

PardonMyFlemish16 > MR2_FTW - Group J's resident Stig 03/17/2014 at 17:15

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1. Come on dude.The Corolla is available with a 6MT too. And most people buy automatic.

2. Plenty of good FWD drivers cars don't have IRS. Moot point.

3. Rear brakes don't matter much on a FWD car. I've had both in the same car. Changing the fronts had more of a difference than drums/discs in the back.

4. Some people don't want a flashy ride. Highly subjective.

5. You are right but you should check.

6. One how do you know the Corolla's chassis is stiffer? 2 again not everyone cares about any of this stuff, so having it doesn't make it objectively better. Everyone wants a reliable car. Everyone wants good fuel economy. Etc etc. Those are things you can use to say a car is objectively better than another.

PardonMyFlemish16 > Milky 03/17/2014 at 17:19

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How have I "swapped sides"? I hope to never drive/own a Corolla and I don't like them at all. But where we differ is that unlike me, you feel that your personal subjective dislike of the Corolla translates into some rational, objective negative judgment of the car and anyone that buys or has anything remotely positive to say about them. You've adopted hating Corollas as some kind of worthy commendable cause. Newsflash. Corollas aren't going anywhere, and you hating them doesn't make them objectively bad cars. The things the 3 has that the Corolla doesn't doesn't matter to 99% of the car buying population, and as much as you feel like a bad ass for "fighting the good fight", they are just as right for liking Corollas as you are for not liking them. It's all subjective/individual.

PardonMyFlemish16 > therevengeofthesaab (really likes pre-2005 hondas right now) 03/17/2014 at 17:20

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So more HP= better car? Not sure/don't really care what your point is.

crowmolly > PardonMyFlemish16 03/17/2014 at 17:21

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Meh. It's so easy to forget that the "appliance" line of cars that some manufacturers have is the cash cow that allows them to make some of the lower profit, lower volume fun stuff. The Corolla is a basic car. Most people don't give a shit about 4 wheel discs, the number of gears in their trans, independent rear suspension, and so on. If it goes from A to B, doesn't cost them too much up front and over the years and passes their personal safety threshold then it's good enough. Most drivers couldn't even spell Parnelli Jones , let alone drive like him.

You can drone on and on about all the "cool" features the Mazda has but in the end many buyers don't give a rat's ass. Whining about the appliance cars is displaying a fundamental misunderstanding about how the industry actually works. They are in it to make money, not to make a car that "passes muster" among car folk.

Übel > PardonMyFlemish16 03/17/2014 at 17:22

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The base model Corolla has 132hp and can be optioned up to 140. The Mazda starts with 155 and can be optioned up to 184. The Jetta may start at 115hp, but that's only in the stripper model nobody will buy. The minute you go up a trim, it gets 170hp, and even the diesel has 140.

Jetta and Mazda 3 have discs all around, and the Cobalt isn't made any more.

therevengeofthesaab (really likes pre-2005 hondas right now) > PardonMyFlemish16 03/17/2014 at 17:23

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Your point that the corolla base engine is not far from the competition.

PardonMyFlemish16 > crowmolly 03/17/2014 at 17:23

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You can drone on and on about all the "cool" features the Mazda has but in the end many buyers don't give a rat's ass.

Exactly. Folks are no more "right" for preferring a Corolla to a 3 than we are for preferring the opposite.

TurboSloth > PardonMyFlemish16 03/17/2014 at 17:33

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I'm not being judgmental, but Corollas are pretty shit.

Milky > PardonMyFlemish16 03/17/2014 at 17:34

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Well you went on a bit of rant there, anywho this is how you swapped sides.

"Since when do automatic transmissions matter to enthusiasts?"

"not a priority for the typical Corolla buyer, so who cares?"

You used two opposing beliefs to support your claims, enthusiasts are not the typical Corolla buyer. Also its worth noting I know how much impact you or I have on a company like Toyota. This is from that post ...

"Accountants … its always the damn accountants. I know Toyota is a business, and I know my opinion has no impact on them, but I'm still going to judge every owner I see driving one."

PardonMyFlemish16 > Milky 03/17/2014 at 17:48

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Again, how did I swap sides? You defined the 2 sides as enthusiasts and Corolla buyers. How does answering someone's points and pointing out Jalopocrisy (Corolla sucks cause the transmission in it I hate and would never buy under any circumstances is not competitive!) equate to buying a Corolla?

Milky > PardonMyFlemish16 03/17/2014 at 18:07

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I really have no idea what the hell you're saying now. My original comment briefly said what I thought was shitty about the car. That included the 4spd. Your response was "Since when do automatic transmissions matter to enthusiasts?" As in I shouldn't care about that transmission because its not something a enthusiast would get.

Later in the same comment you said something didn't matter to the typical Corolla buyer, as in NOT an enthusiast, someone who just wants transportation. THOSE KIND OF PEOPLE BUY BASE MODEL ECONO CARS.

At the end of the day they're going to sell a boatload, I know that. Still doesn't mean I have to like a shitty appliance when there are plenty of good ones out there.

spanfucker retire bitch > PardonMyFlemish16 03/17/2014 at 18:07

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2 is not a moot point. Just because a lot of FWD vehicles still use shitty torsion beams doesn't make it OK. IRS provides a smoother ride in general. I let my Mom take my 3 out for a quick ride and she couldn't believe how much better it felt than her Versa - even though the 3 has a stiffer chassis and slightly stiffer shocks - it still absorbed the pot holes better without shaking the entire car.

There's other economy cars in the class that I like besides the 3. The Kia Forte and Hyundai Elantra are other cars I seriously looked at. But the reason the Mazda3 is so loved around here is that it's incredibly hard to beat its all around package for the same price. Even people that wouldn't appreciate the better chassis, less body roller, better cornering, etc. Can certainly appreciate it for its more spritely straight line acceleration and incredible fuel economy. Hell, even the 6AT that Mazda offers is fucking fantastic. It's easily one of the finest 6-speed automatics in the entire segment.

1337HPMustang > PardonMyFlemish16 03/17/2014 at 18:11

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Im still sensing a sporty econobox in your past.
Do you think VWs are cool?
Is a new civic si a neat car?
Are modern alfas just as good as past ones?

If you've answered yes to any of these questions, you may have what experts call "ricer syndrome". Please seek help in the form of a high dose of reality, followed by the removal of your head from your arse.

Also lol at your vq powered nissan. And lemme guess... sport bike?

PardonMyFlemish16 > 1337HPMustang 03/17/2014 at 18:41

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There are some fun VWs, and my wife drives a VW, but I wouldn't drive one unless I absolutely had to.

I think the new CSi is a tragedy, but for reasons that are pretty much above your pay grade.

I think modern Alfas are a joke, aside from the new 4C. However, when you factor in the % of time the old ones ran, they are not much better.

Way to move the goal posts as well. First I was a "butt hurt FWD fanboy", now I have "ricer syndrome". I wonder how many misdiagnoses you will make before realizing you've been an idiot this whole time.

PardonMyFlemish16 > spanfucker retire bitch 03/17/2014 at 18:43

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Old Clio RS, 205 GTi, and a whole bunch of great FWD drivers cars have rear torsion beams. It's not the end of the world.

PardonMyFlemish16 > 1337HPMustang 03/17/2014 at 18:47

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O and I've never had an "econobox". I also don't look to write people off based on the cars I hope they own/owned because I don't have the capacity to have an adult discussion. You are the one who needs to remove his head from his "arse". I would bet money you don't own a Mustang and never owned or even drove a RWD car. You are prob a pimply face 17 year old with a riced out Opel Astra 1.4

spanfucker retire bitch > PardonMyFlemish16 03/17/2014 at 18:52

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And they're all worse for it. Unless you're a drag racer, IRS will always be objectively be better. It's better from a performance and driving perspective, and it's better from a comfort perspective.

There is no water to your argument that torsion beams "are fine." Just because some other manufacturers are cheap bastards and still include torsion beams and drum brakes, doesn't make it OK.

PardonMyFlemish16 > spanfucker retire bitch 03/17/2014 at 18:56

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For commuting, it is.

I hope you can get over your emotional investment for asserting the 3 as the objective best, and actually look at what matters to people who aren't you. If I had to buy a car in this segment, I would go with the 3 as well, but it's pretty obvious why people get the Civic/Corolla over it.

spanfucker retire bitch > PardonMyFlemish16 03/17/2014 at 19:08

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Actually, I'm not asserting that the 3 is best, I'm asserting that any vehicle that still uses drum brakes and (ESPECIALLY) a torsion beam for the rear is objectively worse. Even in comparing trim levels of the same model that remove the drum brakes and torsion beam - those would be better options.

And no, in fact, for driving it is not better. It's not even so adequate as to not be noticeable. As I've said above, IRS deals with road imperfections far better than a solid axle does, and with the horrible winter we've had, let me tell you. There is a metric ass load of "road imperfections" that an IRS is much better at smoothing out.

PardonMyFlemish16 > spanfucker retire bitch 03/17/2014 at 19:11

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I've had cars with torsion beams and IRSs. There's more to ride quality than the rear suspension design. Of all the factors involved, rear suspension design is probably 4th-5th on the list. Similarly, rear drum brakes in a FWD car is not that big of a deal.

MR2_FTW - Group J's resident Stig > PardonMyFlemish16 03/17/2014 at 19:23

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Think about this: the 14 Corolla is mechanically the same as the 13 Corolla. Same lamesauce 1.8, same crappy suspension, same crappy 4speed auto w/manual optional. The 14 3 is a brand new car. Mazda actually put EFFORT into it. Check this out, it may give you some perspective.

The exhaust manifold is just one great example. Most Toyotas use terrible unequal length log style manifolds with intakes and exhaust systems that are super restrictive but cheap to make. With Mazda, they designed the new engines to be as efficient as possible, not just because it's small, but because it's well designed. 4 - 2 - 1 is not just great for power, but it also optimizes flow and scavenging effect on the exhaust gasses. This increases combustion efficiency, power, and fuel economy. It's just one great example of where Mazda is pushing their cars forward where Toyota's strategy is to just put a new body on an old car and rely on the badge to sell (which works really well, unfortunately).

Keep in mind I work for Toyota, and both of my cars are Toyotas. The 2014 Mazda3 is a much better car than the 2014 Corolla.

PardonMyFlemish16 > MR2_FTW - Group J's resident Stig 03/17/2014 at 19:29

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Toyota put effort into the Corolla too. It's a different car. Corolla has direct injection and an optional CVT. The manual transmission also gained a gear. Spare me the delibirate omissions and hyperbole.

And again, the Corolla's suspension is fine for commuting and non enthusiast driving. I drove a last gen version... it was fine.

MR2_FTW - Group J's resident Stig > PardonMyFlemish16 03/17/2014 at 19:30

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See updated/edited comment

PardonMyFlemish16 > MR2_FTW - Group J's resident Stig 03/17/2014 at 19:53

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All for a measly ~2MPG. I think the exhaust manifold idea is cool, but eh.

MR2_FTW - Group J's resident Stig > PardonMyFlemish16 03/17/2014 at 19:58

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It's less "the manifold design gains 2mpg" and more "our engine runs high compression for efficiency and every component needs to be optimized to obtain that goal". That effort has been present on so many aspects of the 3 that I honestly think it makes it a better car. Is the Rolla bad? No. It's a capable transportation appliance, just like the old one was, that has had some major plastic surgery so that it looks more appealing now (to some, I personally think it's hideous). But the 3 is a better designed, better looking, and more fun car. I think that makes it genuinely better.

1337HPMustang > PardonMyFlemish16 03/17/2014 at 20:21

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ok I'll stop pushing your buttons. I can't help induce a little stress in people who make a 10 paragraph post about corollas and how we shouldn't judge those who drive them.

Oh and you'd lose that bet because I actually do drive a stang.

Keep it real homie

With-a-G is back to not having anything written after his username > PardonMyFlemish16 03/18/2014 at 17:33

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Yes, but it's our bandwagon.

(EDIT: I drove a '97 Corolla for over 160,000 miles. It was an eminently reliable appliance. It was a dream for economical commuting.)